The Casual Dance Teacher's Podcast

Maia
Welcome to the Casual Dance Teachers Podcast. I'm your host, Maia. No matter who, what, or when you teach, I'm here to share all my best tips and tools, along with real and practical conversations with fellow dance educators to help you be the very best dance teacher you can be. Let's talk about it.

Hey friends, thanks so much for being here. Today's episode is the second episode in our series about different styles or methodologies of ballet.

So today we are going to be talking all about RAD technique with the fabulous Kelly Douglas. And if you missed the first episode of this series, which was about Vaganova technique, I will link that episode in the show notes for you to check out as well. Before we begin, let me tell you a little bit about today's guest.

Kelly Douglas is a teacher, choreographer, coach, and RAD certified examiner. She studied at the Royal Winnipeg Ballet School, the Banff School of Fine Arts, and Le Grand Ballet Canadian, and had soloist roles in The Nutcracker, Firebird, Coppelia, Cinderella, and more. Kelly's students have received awards at the Youth America Grand Prix, as well as other ballet competitions.

And Kelly herself has been awarded for her choreography as well. She is also PBT and Pilates MAT certified. Now, before I open up the conversation with Kelly, I did mention in the previous episode on Vaganova, and I want to mention here again, that these conversations are really just meant to be just that.

It's a conversation with someone who's familiar with a specific technique. It's not meant to represent everything about that technique or be an exhaustive analysis or represent the thoughts or opinions of any organizations associated with that technique either. And having already chatted with Kelly, I did want to insert here something that she sent me after we had our conversation with regards to our conversation specifically.

And once you listen, you'll know more, of course, what she's referencing. But just as a little caveat that she wanted me to share with everyone, she said, I don't want people to take the wrong way when I said that with other methods, teachers could open a book and teach from there. I didn't mean that the teachers don't have to be knowledgeable, just more that they could use the exercises straight out of the syllabus book as training exercises, whereas in the RAD, that doesn't produce great results.

I wouldn't want teachers of other methods to think I was being critical of their methods. In my experience, it comes down to the teacher, not the method that produces amazing technical and artistic dancers. So I just wanted to share that.

Of course, that's what this is all about. We are not trying to pit different methods against each other or like find which one is the best. This is all just about giving you, the listeners, the tools and the information to make decisions of what's going to be the best method and the best path forward for you and your students.

And the more information that we have and the more open conversations that we have about that, the better it is for everyone. So there's no goal of trying to uplift or put down specific techniques or choose a winner or anything like that. We're just opening up a dialogue about it.

And if you want to sound off on that dialogue, please join me in the Casual Dance Teachers Network Facebook group, where you can share your own thoughts and opinions. Now, with all of that said, let's get into the conversation. Please join me in welcoming Kelly Douglas to the show.

Kelly, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. I'm so happy to have you.

Kelly
Glad to be here.

Maia
Thanks. Before we get into like hearing a little bit more about RAD technique, I want to hear about you and what your background is and the path that kind of took you into learning about RAD specifically.

Kelly
Well, I started dancing like a lot of young girls, I guess, just around in my house.

And so my mom put me in dance, and it wasn't really formal until about, I think I was nine. And I had been doing recreational, like at rec centers and things like that. And then I started liking the ballet more and more.

So we found a formal school. And my teacher was a Royal Academy examiner. So she was very detailed.

And I loved all that. So I just, I just kept going in that direction. And she was pretty pivotal in my life.

Like she was very, like old school, I guess you'd say now, but saw the potential in me. So she gave me as many opportunities as she could. And I went up all through the different levels with her.

And then I went away after high school to the Alberta Ballet Company and danced professionally for a few years there. So yeah, it kind of started off typically. But I just, something about ballet, I just love it.

It's so detailed. And it's so beautiful at the same time. And a little bit like my, my parents went through a divorce when I was about 10.

And my dad wasn't very stable. And so the house environment for a few years, it wasn't all my life, but it wasn't predictable. And I think the timing of going to ballet while we were going through that at home just really gave me some grounding and safety too.

Because ballet is always the same, you know, like I could, I always knew what to expect. And so it really solidified my reason for being there. So it was, it was everything to me.

It was exercise. It was expression. It was safety.

It was a career path. And yeah.

Maia
Oh, thank you so much for sharing that. I love having that insight about how it helped you kind of psychologically as well as physically. Because we haven't talked about that a whole lot as far as it pertains to ballet. And I think that's true of me too.

I'm kind of a control freak. And when chaos is swirling around me, I get really freaked out. And I love the rules of ballet and the structure. So that's amazing. Thank you.

Kelly
Yeah. I mean, I don't think I realized it at the time, obviously, because I was young. Right. But looking back, I was, yeah, I think it saved me in a way.

Maia
Yeah.

Kelly
Not to be dramatic, but yeah.

Maia
No, absolutely. And so I'm sure that that was a huge impetus in your delving into it and becoming an examiner yourself. Can you talk a little bit about the process? What does it take to be already certified? And what are the steps to maintain certification if there are any? I'm a total blank slate here. I know nothing about this.

So can you kind of talk about the different steps and how a teacher that maybe is interested in certification would go about that?

Kelly
Yeah. It's changed a lot since I went through the process. They're always changing it for kind of the newer generations.

Now it's an online process. It's about two years and you would apply. I mean, most people, as long as you have a certain level of dance training, it's called intermediate.

So it's kind of the first level of a vocational study. Usually kids would pass that at about age 13 or so. So that's the entrance requirement at the moment.

And then it's a two-year program, long distance, like our head office is in London in UK. So the dance teacher training is mostly online. And then they have, I think, a week of intensive in-person study.

When I went through it, there was no internet. So it was all in person. And there was some, like I did an anatomy unit from the university in Waterloo and a dance history unit from another university.

So there was some correspondence, but it was by mail. And then you just had your mentor, who was my teacher that I grew up with. And then there were things you had to memorize.

You had to memorize all the syllabus and the buildups and why you do this that way. And then musical knowledge. And then you had an exam in person with an examiner would come in, and you would have to bring students in.

And they'd watch you teach and then ask you questions and some anatomy, some safety in dance, you know, what to give which level so that you're not giving out something too technically demanding for a younger age. And then you pass or fail that. So I passed that.

And then I was teaching for my old teacher for a while. And then I got an opportunity to buy a small dance school. And so I bought that.

And at the time, it was 40 students, I think, and about eight classes a week. And then I built it to 450 students and 100 and something classes a week. Whoa, that's some growth.

Then once in a while, the Academy will put out applications for examiners. So we do have continuing professional development requirements that we have to meet each year. So I was on a course and then a different mentor, another one, she said to me, we had like a dinner after and she said, Oh, did you apply for your examiners? You'd make a good examiner.

And I had missed it. It was on the website. But I, unless you're looking, it's not like they pop it up and tell you.

So I said, Oh, I didn't hear about that. And she goes, Well, you have a really good eye. And you know, you're good with this student.

So you should apply. So I went home and found it. And then that it was due the next day.

So I was scrambling for trying to I had to find my my all my certificates that I had done as a teen. And so I had to phone my mom and say, Do you still have those things? Yeah. So I just wrote the application and they accepted it.

And then I had to fly to Toronto for it was about a two and a half day audition in front of a panel of five, I think five different examiners and the head of our examining department, like the lead examiner. And again, we just had to demonstrate our knowledge, our musical knowledge. And we'd had to memorize like every single exercise in think about six different syllabi.

So that's a ton of memorization. And then I got accepted. And then I had to spend six weeks in England the following winter.

And then it was just training how to examine and how to deal with different situations. And then I had to shadow existing examiner for a few weeks, like go around on her tour, and then practice delivering the exam. And then I made it through all that.

Yeah. So there's about 200 examiners for Royal Academy in the world. Wow.

I think in Canada, there's 17 now. So there's not a ton of us compared to I think they say there's 250,000 exams each year worldwide.

Maia
Okay, wow. So with a lot of the training being digital now, what's your examination process? Is it still all in person? Or is there examination virtually?

Kelly
For us to examine? Well, during COVID, they went to a lot of digital. And that was the first time they tried that. So they have held on to that as an option.

Maia
Okay.

Kelly
Most examiners don't like that at all.

Maia
I would imagine, yeah.

Kelly
I personally have a hard time. I mean, I can do it. And I do do it for them.

It does suit because the RAD I think is in 80 countries worldwide. So some are very remote. And so I understand in that circumstance, it's hard for them to get to a big enough center or with economic demographics, if there's a community that they just can't afford to send their students to the city.

It is an option, but we've gone back to mostly, like there's mostly live exams now.

Maia
Okay. Yeah.

First, I'll say this when I was growing up, like my training, honestly, I was pretty much taught there's Cecchetti and Vaganova. I didn't even hear about RAD until later. And I'm curious, with your training being founded in RAD and then going on, I don't know if this is a fair question to ask you, but if you were comparing and contrasting RAD with other techniques and methods, can you tell me a little bit about what it is that sets RAD apart?

Kelly
Are you in the States?

Maia
Yes.

Kelly
Yeah. That's why for some reason RAD, there are examiners and teachers there, but it's not as known there. But it is the most well-used one in the world.

Maia
So interesting.

Kelly
Yeah. RAD was founded by, it was about 106 years ago, and there were Vaganova and Cecchetti members on the board.

Maia
Okay.

Kelly
And then Royal Ballet. So I don't know if you've ever watched Royal Ballet, but they're in from London.

Maia
Yeah

Kelly
They're considered, I think it depends on the survey you read, but they're always in the top three companies of the world. And RAD, Royal Academy and Royal Ballet, they're all kind of mushed together. Yeah.

So they train RAD only, right? So it does produce some of the cleanest dancers in the world. The training too, what I appreciate about it is that they have changed their syllabi every 15 years or so, and they look at the generations coming up and what the kids relate to and what music is available to them. And they've tried to make it really current and accessible for the students.

The Cecchetti hasn't done that. They're still kind of teaching the same things as they did maybe in the 30s, 40s. I mean, it makes kids really strong.

And Vaganova was made for specific bodies. Like it's, again, we all end up in the same place. The Vaganova syllabus, they would, when it was still under communist rule, they would choose, right? They'd go into the villages and the schools and they would do the body testing, like how flexible everything is.

And if you passed, then you were chosen and you were told you're going to be a ballerina, you're going to be a skater, you're going to be a gymnast. So their syllabus was designed for these types of bodies only. So it's a little bit difficult.

It's good training, but it's hard when you get a body that has some limitations that won't do the extreme positions that Vaganova gets into. So Royal Academy, their philosophy is like, they do go slower, I would say, than the other ones. And there's also Imperial Society, ISTD, which is another one from England, which is similar to RAD, quite similar, but they just, their mandate isn't as, like RAD's mandate is to push into the world as much as they can and be accessible worldwide, which they have done.

And so, yeah, they kind of, they take a little while longer to build things up, I would say. Okay. And their current mandate is more, they say freedom before form, where I would say Vaganova's form before freedom.

Okay, yeah. Because in the Vaganova, they get them, you know, they get them sitting and doing all these exercises for legs and feet and this and that, and they don't let them get up and move until all of the joints in the body have been explored. Like what, how does this joint move? How does that joint move? And then later on around nine or 10, then they're up and doing ballet.

Yeah. But RADs, they want them running and skipping and jumping and turning, even if it's not ballet technique. Okay.

And then slowly they start changing it into, okay, now this is turned out and this is solid and this is held and they're not doing pirouettes as fast as the other methods. But if you look at World Ballet, at the end of all the process, it's one of the best companies in the whole world. And it's, everything's been thoroughly trained, you know? Yeah.

So, yeah, and it's clean. I guess that's the biggest thing people would say, like if they had to describe it, it's so clean. Okay.

And some of the others I don't find as clean. They might be flashier or like higher extensions or more turns or something like that.

Maia
Okay. Oh, wonderful. I love it. I love geeking out about ballet techniques.

Thank you for doing that. Got a little history, a little-

Kelly
That's my opinion on it anyway. Yeah.

Maia
No, thank you. That's what you're here for. So that's amazing.

And with your experience, I'm going to ask you about the same question kind of from the point of view of working with students. And then because you also train other teachers, I want to hear about that next. But starting with the students, can you give me some feedback? And obviously the cleanliness does kind of answer that question, but is there anything else, a specific example maybe of a student that you've seen really benefit from the way that the RAD technique is structured?

Kelly
Well, I mean, I've had students go on into the professional schools at Royal Ballet or some of the bigger San Francisco Ballet School.

Yeah. So it does prepare them well for... Like my daughter, for instance, she trained with me all the way up and it was all Royal Academy and then she was accepted to San Francisco Ballet School. The directors there, it was French method, which is a whole other thing.

And I can't claim to know exactly. I mean, Paris Opera is an amazing... It's also in the top three. Yeah.

So their training methods are also amazing, but they keep themselves quite close in. So if you're not lucky enough to have been in one of their summer schools or something, I can't claim to know exactly their philosophy. But when my daughter went to San Francisco, a lot of her teachers were either Vaganova or French.

And they would say to her, oh, you must have been trained British, right? Because they can see every position is right there and all the arms are very rounded, very clear. So then they took her from there and she's a professional dancer now. So it does prepare the students well for whatever method they want to move into.

There's always adjustments, of course, whenever you change the lineage of what you're being taught. It's interesting now I have two students, like right now it's good because they're letting kids cross qualify now. So it used to be if I want to do this level exam and I've done this level exam that qualifies me, but I'm on this method, say Cecchetti, I can't do that.

I have to go back and do the prerequisite exam. So that deterred a lot of people from trying. But now they've all opened that up.

I have two students now that have trained Cecchetti their whole lives and they've done Advanced 1 Cecchetti. And then they said, can I do Advanced 2 Royal Academy with you? Can I try that? I'm like, sure. This is great.

And so what I'm noticing with them crossing over, they're very strong because Cecchetti does a lot of still on one leg, like the old way of training, stand on one leg and do 32 of these things. But Royal Academy will go one leg, other leg, up, down, turn around this way, that way, you know? So they get a little stronger in the moving. And I would say Cecchetti, from what I've seen, just my experience, they look stronger on the old school stuff, like stand here, leg, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, that kind of thing.

The music is much different too, because we use orchestrated music. We use like from, some are from movies, musicals, some are like African, just drums, Spanish guitar. And so the kids, the girls are like, wow, this is our variation? Because it's a Brazilian tango and it's got all these wild instruments in there.

It's very current. You can put it on stage. Like it looks very choreographed and exciting to watch.

And so I'm trying to get them to move their heads and like have some fun and be vibrant in their exam experience instead of just, oh, okay, here we go, here we go. It's like, hold, hold, hold, hold, you know? So that's been interesting for me. It's been a lot of fun.

Maia
Yeah. Well, I mean, if you're going to be a classical ballet dancer, in this day and age, you have to be able to also move to other kinds of music. Oh, for sure.

Be adaptable. So that's great. So let's pivot now to your experience with training teachers and just being an RAD teacher yourself.

What are the benefits of having the RAD syllabus as a teacher?

Kelly
Well, for one thing here, I'm not sure if it works the same in the States. It's all high school credits. So because RAD is recognized as a post-secondary institution in the UK, they've gotten from a certain age up, certain levels up, registered so that if you get your exam certificate, you can use it as a high school credit.

Maia
Oh, okay, that's awesome.

Kelly
So that's one big benefit. And it's very, you have to have the right teacher.

So the teachers have to understand, and RAD has said it's not a training syllabus, it's a presentation, it's a choreography. So they have to, which is with my teaching program, we're trying to help them with that, like how to pull that. Like you can't just open the book.

Like with Cecchetti, you could. You open the book, and it says, Rond de jambe en dehors, Close. Andedans, Down, Close. Repeat with a Rise, Close. Repeat with a Rise, Close. Repeat with a Double, Close.

And it just does that. So you're actually training the one specific element. But with the current Royal Academy, it's like, One Rond de Jambe, Close.

Inside Leg Ballotte. Pull up, turn the other side. Port de Bras this way, come back on the first side.

So you have to be able to discern what the key elements are there, and pull it out, and to be able to do your own training exercises.

Maia
Interesting, okay.

Kelly
So it's a little bit more responsibility, I would say, as a teacher.

I mean, there's a lot of support. There's a lot of courses, and it's worldwide. It's so worldwide.

That's one of the biggest benefits. Like if I want to move to South Africa, and I go there, and I say, Hey, I've taught RAD this long, and I'm an examiner. I probably could get a job right away.

Yeah. So I think that's one of the biggest things with RAD, and I think that's why they want it to be so worldwide, is for their members. As soon as you get your certification, it certifies you for whatever you want to do in the world.

It's not so local, and it's fun to teach. Like the old syllabus, you would always go in and go, Oh, I have to teach this Port de Bras, and the kids hate it, and the music is antiquated, and how am I going to make this fun? But now it's like they ask for it. Like, Can we do this? I love that music, or that variation is so fun.

Can we do that today? I don't think I've ever been asked before. Can we please do the Port de Bras again? Right. Yeah.

Maia
Oh, that's incredible. Awesome. In the interest of time, I'm not going to necessarily ask you any more questions about RAD, but I want people that are listening that are interested to be able to connect with you, because I know you do so much training.

You have resources. And what's the next step for someone that's listening? Can you tell us how they can reach out and or connect with you?

Kelly
Well, I have a Instagram, if they want,

Maia
And I will put it in the show notes, too. But if you can shout it out now, that'd be great.

Kelly
Kelly Douglas8865.

Maia
Perfect.

Kelly
The Royal Academy website has lots of information on there if they were interested in the teaching program or taking exams or anything.

And I think they might have a teacher directory as well. So whatever area they're in, they could look up RAD teachers in the area.

Maia
Perfect.

Now I'm going to put you on the spot. Do you have a favorite quote related to dance that you can share?

Kelly
Oh, actually, it's funny, because in my teaching course, we do quotes every day.

Maia
Oh, perfect.

Kelly
Well, I just saw this one. I thought it was good. "Technique doesn't give you chills."

Maia
Hi again, everyone. This is Maia hopping back in just to wrap things up with a big thank you again to Kelly. Huge thanks to GB Mystical for the theme music for our show.

And big thanks to everyone in the Casual Dance Teachers Network on Facebook or following us on Instagram at the Casual Dance Teachers Podcast. Make sure that you join us there as well as leaving a review for the podcast wherever you're listening so that we can continue to widen the audience and the participants in this dialogue about different ballet methodologies, which I think is so important and fascinating to have. Thanks again, everybody.

See you next time.