The Casual Dance Teacher's Podcast

Maia
Hello, and welcome to the Casual Dance Teachers podcast. I'm your host, Maia. If you've been listening to the podcast for a while, you know that one theme that keeps coming up in my conversations with guests is the topic of neurodiversity in dance.I love talking about this subject, and it is very near and dear to my heart because my son is diagnosed with autism, and so I deal with this on an everyday basis, and I look at a lot of my educational perspective
through the lens of how I handle working with and educating my son. With that said, I still think it's really, really important to focus this conversation around those who can speak specifically to that experience firsthand, So I'm so, so excited to have today's guest on to share with us about what it's like to learn dance, create dance, understand dance, and even build an entire company as someone with autism.
Joining us today is Isaac Iskra, a graduate of the University of Texas at Austin and the founder of Nefelaba Dance Theater. Nefeliba is a company that creates educational dance performances about, but not limited to, the autistic experience.
Isaac was selected for Mare Nostrum Elements Emerging Choreographer Series in both 2019 and again in 2020, and staged his full-length work Fauve in 2023 with Nefelaba Dance Theater.
I'm so excited to dive in and pick Isaac's brain, so let's not hold back any longer, Isaac, thank
you for being here!

Isaac
Of course, Happy to be here.

Maia
I am really, really interested to hear more about your story about dance and autism and how you learned about both of those things and kind of where they intersect. Obviously that's a huge topic of discussion, but would you mind kind of debriefing on your story a little bit about how you came to be a dancer and also how you came to your autism diagnosis through that?

Isaac
Yeah. My family had me in sports because I'm a pretty tall person, so I'm six feet, seven inches tall. So since I could walk, I've been in sports. I started off playing basketball, then tennis. And then I think when I was 17, that's when I started getting interested in dance. Because it's funny, I was watching YouTube, and I came across this electronic dance music genre called dubstep And I was like, I actually really kind of like how aggressive this is. And then there's a guy, there's a YouTube dancer called Jay Gardaris, who's this Greek dude, if I remember correctly, And he was dancing to it, And I was like, wow, I really want to do that. And so I started dancing to dubstep in my mom's kitchen and just kind of being like wow, I really find myself spending hours and hours doing this and it's really, really cool to me. And that would be what I would do instead of homework or instead of practicing tennis. That would be
what my main focus was. Even going into college, there'd be times where I wake up at, I don't know, one or two in the morning and I'm like, I really want to dance right now. And so I'd go and dance for like an hour, burn off some energy and then come back to bed and sleep and wake up and go to class. But dance wasn't my major right away. So I was a pre-med major, And then I was thinking, okay, well, I wanted to do something a little bit more creative So I went to fashion design school. I did that for about a year and a half But again, I found myself getting pulled more and more towards dance. And so I made the change to being a dancer and really committing myself to training in that full time, really taking it seriously, And that started when I was 21. And I went to the University of Texas at Austin Dance Department, trained there in West African Contemporary under Charles O. Anderson, chair of the dance department, and got my training in contemporary ballet from the head teacher of ballet, her name is Dorothy O'Shea Overby. Really fantastic people. Started school in 2015, graduated
in 2019, but I was 25 when I graduated. Moved up to New York City right afterwards and
had every intention to start dancing professionally. I actually was about to, right before
COVID happened, I was in the audition process to go and do like a, so you think you can dance variation, but for people who had like learning disabilities and physical disabilities over in England. I was in the midst of all that audition process, but then we went into lockdown and everything kind of went left And at that point I thought, okay, well, my technique's kind of gone out the window, but I'm still like very interested in creating dance. So let me take my choreography skills I learned in college and apply that to other people who can execute the movement more brilliantly and create a dance company.
And when I got to New York in 2019, I auditioned for the Mare Nostrum Elements Emerging Choreography Series. And that's really how I kind of got my start in choreography. What they do specifically is help people who are emerging choreographers kind of get stage presence more or less. And so I auditioned for that and out of about 90 people, it was me and five others that were selected. And so that was a pretty, it was a pretty rigorous audition process. We had to go to and present a brand new piece of choreography every time. But we also had to submit written proposals because it's not enough to be able to move, You also have to be able to articulate your ideas. So that was also another big part of it was like, okay, great, you can move, but how well can you express what it is you're thinking verbally, which is its own hurdle to jump. So I did that And then I got invited back a second time as a returning choreographer, And then after that, I was selected for the City University of New York's dance performance for the LaGuardia Performing Arts Center, And that's where I choreographed my first evening length work. And that kind of brings us up to today. And that's the dance.
The autism part of your question is, so I received an sort of unofficial diagnosis when my mom had a friend who was a therapist, And the therapist was talking to my mom about what my childhood was like and kind of growing up and what my mom noticed, And the therapist said, you know, it sounds to me like your son has all the identifying characteristics of someone who's on the autism spectrum. And once my mom told me that, I was like, oh, I actually don't really know a whole lot about autism, So let me just go research into it. And, you know, the more I read
about it, the more it just made sense. Like everything sort of just kind of clicked. I was like, okay, that explains I was like this, That explains I'm like that You know, something called the executive dysfunction, The fact that I didn't start speaking until I was about four, Me not really understanding communication too well and kind of finding it really hard to connect with people and sort of, I guess, being in my own world a lot of times.
And so it kind of like really made sense and all that And I got my official diagnosis, again, when I was in college at UT, when I was, that was when I was 21. And so that was like sort of solidifying what I already knew. But, you know, it was nice to have that official diagnosis. And it wasn't, I didn't really make dance; I didn't really make autism a part of what I was dancing about until after I graduated with Nefelaba Dance Theater, which I started just prior to the City University performance. I had the idea that I wanted to create dance performances about but not limited to the autistic experience.
What does that mean? That essentially means that as a company, we try our best to create works about the autistic experience with dance, but that's not like the limiting part being that it doesn't have to be just dance. It could be like, say, for example, if we
wanted to contract out an artist who had like who was doing like a series of paintings about autism, like we would hire them out or if there's someone who's a writer, who's not on the spectrum, but is writing about the experiences of minority high school students. And that's like of interest to the company, Yeah, sure, We'll contract them out and
have them produce some work as well. So it frees us up to allow other artists to have their voices heard while still maintaining like a primary focus on the autism part of the mission statement.

Maia
Yeah, you said something really interesting earlier that I want to touch on and hear more about, which is in regards to your choreography, it's not enough to just move, but you have to be able to express your ideas. So what was your journey like to be able to express yourself to other dancers to convey those messages?

Isaac
The expression was kind of like, I've always been like a creative person. I loved drawing
dragons when I was really young. I really, really had a fascination with drawing dragons. And then I had an obsession with drawing robots. And then I was like, okay, well, I can draw pretty well I'm very creative in that result, So let me draw clothes. And I got obsessed with drawing clothes, hence me going into the fashion design school. But then I realized I couldn't sew to save my life, So I was like, well, this doesn't seem like it's for me. And again, kind of
going towards the dance part With trying to convey autism through movement, I try to find the common language of dance through, I think ballet is actually a pretty good spot, like a modern dance technique specifically Graham technique, and then ballet technique. And finding, okay, what are repetitive and circular movements that autistic people like to display, translate that into
like a circular repetitive dance movement. And that circular repetitive dance movement is like, for example, common language between dancers who are not on the spectrum and myself who is. So it's like, okay, translating, having dance essentially be the medium between what they understand and what I'm experiencing, and trying to articulate, okay, here's how an autistic person might express themselves and feeling joy by rocking back and forth, because or they're trying to calm themselves down, depending on context. But in dance, that might be like, tendu,
tendu, tendu, tendu, tendu, tendu, tendu. something like that. And so trying to have that be like the medium of the end, in the grander message of whatever the performance is, say that, okay,
this performance is about the autism spectrum - and this might be like in the brochure - this performance is about the autism spectrum which you'll see a lot of repetitive and circular movements, which helps people on the autism spectrum feel secure in themselves or calm themselves down if they're feeling overly stimulated. And you'll see that in tonight's performance. And that would be like a brochure. And, you know, the dancers would, of course, execute that on stage to sort of bring the audience into the understanding of why is it that this dancer in particular is doing, like 12 tendus in a row.

Maia
While we're talking about the program itself, I know a lot of companies are leaning into doing sensory friendly performances. You do any work with that currently for the audiences? Or do you have any tips on how companies or studios could present their work in a more sensory friendly way?

Isaac
I kind of go back and forth on this because like, most audience members are not going to be, are not going to have sensory issues, So the logic there is that, okay, I'm trying to create a piece about sensory issues So I want you to come to me and see what I'm experiencing, And also at the same time, someone who in the audience does have sensory issues, they might have lighting or sound sensory issues. So I would have like a small supply of earplugs or some like really easy disposable sunglasses, something to try and help them out so they can enjoy it as well. And then I might even have it like, say, if we're doing like a Thursday, Friday, Saturday performance, I might say the Thursday
performance will be specifically for audience members who have sensory issues. So if you're a person who does have that, we're going to do a special performance where we're going to adjust the lighting, we're going to adjust the sound so that people who do have that can come and experience it in a way that's more comfortable for them. And then we can have like another show for people who aren't, you know, we'll get it back to normal levels

Maia
Okay Yeah. I also, I was doing my homework on you I was reading up a little bit and I found something that said that I believe this was in your undergrad You worked on a project with Dr. Tina Curran regarding teaching methods for learners with aut ism Is that right?

Isaac
Correct

Maia
Do you have any advice that you could share in regards to that work that would help teachers that have autistic or neurodivergent students in their classes?

Isaac
Well, I think there's something, and this is, I was doing, I was interviewing with the Brooklyn Autism Center. I created a pilot episode about the perspective of teachers who work with special needs students primarily autistic students, but like other special needs students would sometimes be also mixing with the class. And one of the things that they mentioned is that using timers is a very big part of i t Using calendars, making sure that the students are really on top of like time management and that I think is a really big part of trying to drive home how to help kids develop. Because if nothing else, you know, whether young, middle-aged or older, like time management is always going to be a key thing. And so like, I know for example, there would be times where like I get really, really wrapped up. Like when I was younger, I would sit and I would draw for like six hours and I completely it would feel like 30 minutes went by, which is great for me, but that's not great if I've got homework that also needs to be done. Really trying to drive home the idea of time management skills, setting timers, laying out a plan, identifying, okay, this is what needs to happen today, And then let's spend like five minutes
rewarding ourselves with like, you know, whatever that might be like video game time, chocolate, maybe some basketball time if that kid plays sports. But really trying to drive home the idea that organizing your time and then being diligent about that will help you in so many different ways. I think that'd be a really great place to start Something else that really kind of surprised me, both working with Tina Curran, but also talking to the people at the Brooklyn Autism Center is the introduction of iPads and or touchscreens, because there's like different tablets out there nowadays as being a really effective way of communicating with kids.
Sometimes kids will have issues with like fine motor skills. And so they won't be able to like, you know, move their fingers like really precisely. So like gross motor skills, where they're like, you know, kind of like pawing at the screen to get things to move is really what they need in order to communicate with their what their desires are. So I would definitely say like any parent or anyone who's getting into this field or has a child that has received a diagnosis,
like definitely look into getting touchscreen, tools to help them be able to communicate with you

Maia
I know with autism, the neural pathways are different, And I'm not sure how this
works on a neurological level, But would improving gross motor skills through
dance classes or different gross motor activities generally help to improve the fine motor skills?
Or is it generally go the other way around where we start small and then it can build a little
bit bigger?

Isaac
Well, it's it doesn't hurt to start on both ends. Okay, because with with gross motor skills,
generally, so like one of the stereotypical things is you'll see people who are on the autism spectrum is that they don't always have the greatest sense of balance or coordination for that matter. And this isn't to say that everyone is like this. Some people have great motor
skills, and some people have none at all So it's, of course, a spectrum with dance, different styles will have you focus on different kinds of motor skills. So for example, ballet will have you really, you know, stand upright and proper, and you'll have, you know, really great posture. And you'll get, you know, beautiful command over your arms and your legs, and your torso and like how your head should look, which is wonderful, because that's like very gross very large movement. With say, for example, hip hop, which is the first dance style that I really started training in, you'll have waving, for example, which is really talking about, like, how do you adjust your fingers so you can make that wave look more impressive So really breaking that down the step by step and how that happens. And then practicing that over and over again can make your movement a lot more fluid. So that takes ballet, that takes hip hop, that's taking different kinds of dance styles approach motor skills, whether it be gross or fine, in its own way, really helps round out the ability to help someone move around in their day, whether it be like large or small scale

Maia
The way that you presented that was so clear, And I was thinking about you saying that you did have trouble with communication when you were younger. I'm like, wow, that's awesome how you explain that and articulated it, Thank you!

Isaac
Yeah, of course

Maia
So again, this is also a big question, you can kind of approach it how you want On a general scale, I also wanted to ask if you have any other general tips for teachers anything maybe about the classroom structure or the way that we teach that we can adjust to be more friendly to all different types of learners. So being mindful of someone that might have autism, but anyone that might feel like the class is structured a little too rigidly or not in a way that's welcoming or friendly to them - Do you have some
advice on that front?

Isaac
I would say so I have a friend of mine, Maria Daniels, who I believe you interviewed, And she was talking to me about how before classes even start, like really getting tounderstand the students on an individual level, so that when they see you in person, and this I guess, like an interview process, I guess, with these kids, more so so they are aware of who you are. So you're aware of who they are, and you can get a better understanding of them, essentially going through that process so that when they see you, and it's time for a class to start they're not like, you know, who is this new person, I'm not quite sure who or what they're doing, like, what's the rules, what's the regulations, but they're a little more relaxed and a little more comfortable with you. So I think that that's a great tip to have, if you can afford that kind of time And then I think another thing is being very open to listening. And, you know, that sounds like an easy thing to say, but being open to, like, just listening because they're going to tell you exactly what they need, if they have enough time because it might not come out right away, it might not come out as clear, but they will eventually tell you exactly what they need, if given enough time. So I think if you ask a question, like, say, what color is the sky, and they might not care at all about what this color of the sky is, but they're, they're eventually going to get around to answering you. But it might take five minutes. So kind of just like, they're working on the answer to the question, and they've probably already answered it, But they just need to get around to answering you Like verbally, verbally answer.
Yeah, So I'd say listening, and being really patient with how long it takes them to answer you.

Maia
I was just talking to a friend earlier today about how I'm a teacher that tends to try and race through my to do list and like, check off the boxes of doing this, this and this in class And I'm trying to be more mindful of that, So you really hit the nail on the head for me.
Now, we didn't get to talk really a whole lot about Nefelaba, just a brief background. So I'd love for people to be able to follow your work and learn more about your work with them. So can you share where on social media and where physically people can connect with both you and with your company and all of your work?

Isaac
So at the moment, the website, the company website is going through a little bit of a rebuff, if you will, we're trying to get some things worked out. So it's not up right nowm But I'll definitely, I'll share that with you so that you can share that with others. But on Instagram, you can find us at nefelaba.dance.theatre, you can find us there. And you'll find clips from CUNY, you'll find different things related to the company and first impression of what it is that we're trying to do You'll also see some work from some of the people that we sponsored, Like we sponsored a woman named Friday Linton. She's a metal artist. She's a blacksmith, but she makes fashion or she's made fashion out of chain mail.

Maia
Oh, wow.

Isaac
And so what you'll see on our Instagram page is an installation that she did with creating metal botanical flowers. And so we were, we sponsored her in that, we were a co-sponsor for her in that creation pro cess. So you'll see that not only we are a dance company, but we're also interested in promoting art of different kinds

Maia
That's great. That makes a lot of sense since you obviously are an artist on like every medium and every front from the sounds of it. And I forgot to ask that show that got shut down during COVID, Is that going anywhere?

Isaac
No, whatever happened with that, I never heard back from them. So whatever it was happened.

Maia
Well, is there anything else before we wrap up related to this discussion at all? Because I know we bounced around a bit pretty quick Is there anything else that you wanted to add?

Isaac
Yeah, I guess, well, with where I'm at right now, and this is specifically for people who are interested in getting into the arts, There's definitely like the chip on the shoulder of going against the man and going against like the big finance companies, But I'll definitely say that you really need to be financially savvy for you to make it as an artist. Take it with a grain of salt that you can definitely learn something from them. Be wary because like, yes, of course, like, you know, what they're doing isn't exactly the most humane thing all the time But understand that you can learn something from everybody. And that's for you to be a successful artist means being employed, And for you to be employed means for you to understand your finances and how to articulate what it is that you use that what dollar amount that you need to make your art happen

Maia
Yeah, that's great practical advice! My final question, do you have a favorite quote that you'd like to share with us to close?

Isaac
Yeah, my favorite quote would be from chef Marco Pierre white that being a great chef means being able to do a bunch of little things very well. And so in the same thing translates to being a
dancer, being a great dancer, a great choreographer means just being a be being able to do a bunch of little things very well. And if you can do a bunch of little things very well, and make it a little bit better day after day, that's really it to, you know, self improvement, self self discovery, or you know, being a better dancer, better correct, or better, whatever it is you want to be And sticking with it One of my favorite music artists when I was growing up, Billie Holiday, she's a jazz singer from the 1930s 40s. She was singing in clubs for 10 years before she became popular. So do a bunch of little things very well, and stay patient, stick with it. You'll be fine.

Maia
That's awesome. I really appreciate your time.

Wow, I don't think I really can add anything else to that. I just absolutely loved this conversation with Isaac. I hope you will all join me in the casual dance teachers network on Facebook to let
me know what you thought and what you took away from this conversation. And as always, thank you to GB mystical for the theme music that you hear at the beginning of the episode, and
again to Isaac for joining me.